Insurtechs Under the Microscope

Raymond Moss: The best advice I've ever heard people in podcasting, and I have heard this ubiquitously across the board, is you just keep going and you figure out how to edit.

Ben Curtis: So the guy who doesn't do the editing.

Raymond Moss: Sound like really sound advice to me. That's good.

Ben Curtis: All right. All right. Well we'll just forge ahead then.

Raymond Moss: Let me start with our intro let me let me let me get our intro in there.

Ben Curtis: Go for it.

Raymond Moss: Welcome to the podcast that accompanies the DOT analysis platform, where we discuss real time trends in the truck insurance market and explore answers to the questions you are not allowed to ask. I'm Ray.

Ben Curtis: And I'm Ben, and this is the Inside Lane.

Raymond Moss: Yeah, well here's what I was gonna say is that day after day, week after week, month after month, as I land on the entire market in market intelligence, and I just glance at the map that is showing the whole United States, I see less red and I see more green. And I think that's so fascinating. Because a year ago,.

Ben Curtis: Yeah, it really is.

Raymond Moss: There was a lot of red on the screen. And maybe we're reaching the end of that. I don't know, people talked about a couple years ago the cargo recession. Is that at an end?

Ben Curtis: Yeah.

Raymond Moss: I don't know.

Ben Curtis: You know, you mentioned a year ago, but really, you know, I do market update videos for our clients on a regular basis. And it was just maybe two months ago that.

Raymond Moss: Yeah.

Ben Curtis: I specifically compared the overall market with Great Westbook. And I think they were down I could go back and watch the video, I think they were down six percent. And that was I think two months ago. So to see it at down one percent is actually a pretty significant turnaround.

Raymond Moss: Well look where most of that's from. Single unit is what's changing. And I wonder, and I'm not I I don't know because I'm not quite the math person that others are, but does that have to do with a base effect from what happened, call it twelve to fourteen months ago months ago after Liberation Day and things coming in from ports and single unit more I don't know.

Ben Curtis: It is interesting though because a lot of times we go to market intelligence and just go straight to an insurance company. And there is some.

Raymond Moss: Right.

Ben Curtis: Comparative data to market averages. So you are looking at market averages, but generally that's in the renewal rate and relationship duration, not like in the overall market. So it is an interesting.

Raymond Moss: Yeah. Right.

Ben Curtis: Thing to kind of dwell on for a minute. You know, here's something else though. You said single unit. So remember, we can use all of our filters for the overall market.

Raymond Moss: Yeah.

Ben Curtis: So do As of ninety days ago.

Raymond Moss: You mean to do just single unit? You want me to leave it at everybody?

Ben Curtis: Well leave it at everybody and just see there's a couple of things that I want you to see.

Raymond Moss: Right, ninety days ago. Yeah, look at that. See? That's three months ago.

Ben Curtis: Yeah, now here's what's interesting. So you're looking at three months ago, right? Look at the.

Raymond Moss: Total down by four percent.

Ben Curtis: So we're not doing the comparative, but look at the relationship duration. This doesn't have an insurance company on it, only has the market average. Here would.

Raymond Moss: Yeah.

Ben Curtis: Be the thought. If a bunch of business is coming if if things are actually turning around, what would need to be true of the market? What would be the hypothesis?

Raymond Moss: Okay, so I okay, here's what I think you're getting at. I'm at ninety days right now. I'm looking at the market as of ninety days ago. I see that forty percent of the market is in the zero to one year. New.

Ben Curtis: Was new business. Yep.

Raymond Moss: Business. If I go to now, I expect this forty percent to increase. Am I am I on the right track, you think?

Ben Curtis: Well, i if it increases, it's so one of two things could be well, I guess one of three could be true. It can increase, it could decrease, it could stay the same. If it increases,.

Raymond Moss: Okay.

Ben Curtis: What that would indicate is that the bus.

Raymond Moss: There's more people entering the market.

Ben Curtis: Yes. Remember, new business doesn't just mean new market entrance from a like new authority. It could be, but it also.

Raymond Moss: True, yeah. Right. Yep.

Ben Curtis: Just means first policy year business, which just means more has moved around in the industry, right?

Raymond Moss: Right, right.

Ben Curtis: So the numbers are going up because we see there's three hundred and forty eight thousand policies, forty percent in its first year. All right, so now let's go to as of now and compare that.

Raymond Moss: Alright, here we go. As of now.

Ben Curtis: 348,000 policies. Yeah. So that goes to 359. So 11,000 policies added. And the first year goes down.

Raymond Moss: Okay, unpack that for me. Well what is the.

Ben Curtis: Well, it has it has to mean that the overall market and actually the mature market is growing, which I think is a more s powerful indicator of what's actually happening and turning around.

Raymond Moss: You know what that makes sense with? One of the big narratives I remember go think back to twenty twenty, twenty twenty one, twenty twenty two, everyone and their brother started a trucking company. Does that mean it has taken just several years now to clear the chaff, so to speak, of everyone who jumped in to thinking they can ride a truck for huge yeah cargo rates and it's finally clearing. The log jam is finally clearing. that's so fascinating.

Ben Curtis: I it's gotta be at least a piece of it. I'm.

Raymond Moss: Right.

Ben Curtis: I'm sure there's more to unpack there, but at least just being able to.

Raymond Moss: I'm sure there is.

Ben Curtis: See that trend overall. See, 'cause if that had if.

Raymond Moss: Right.

Ben Curtis: If the new business, if that zero to one year business was skyrocketing here with this growth, you'd say, Okay, is the market actually turning around? Or are there just a bunch of new authorities.

Raymond Moss: Yeah.

Ben Curtis: Trying this out and they're not gonna last anyways, and it's just market churn.

Raymond Moss: Which that's where we were five, six years ago.

Ben Curtis: Right. And doesn't this doesn't this feel like a healthier market if the growth is the mature market that's growing?

Raymond Moss: Yeah. Yeah.

Ben Curtis: So yeah, it'll th this will be fascinating to watch here. It does seem like for the last several months that trend has been down. It's been that six to eight percent overall down in the market. That is starting to turn around and this looks positive. So it'll be really interesting to see over the next three to six months here what happens in the overall market and how those if those trends continue or if they change.

Raymond Moss: Yeah, that is so cool. I love understanding and unpacking the macro story. I just I love macro stuff. I think it's fun.

Ben Curtis: Wanted to talk about insure text today.

Raymond Moss: Yeah. On everybody's mind, right? Insure text.

Ben Curtis: Yep. So, you know, thinking about insurrects are kind of a unique perspective on underwriting, right?

Raymond Moss: Yep. Well, fun way to put it.

Ben Curtis: And well I guess by yeah, I guess by unique I just mean they're a a they're a breed in and of themselves, right? Don't quite fit in.

Raymond Moss: Yeah.

Ben Curtis: The traditional insurance company underwriting, don't quite fit in the MGA category, they're they're a they're a breed of their own.

Raymond Moss: Right.

Ben Curtis: So I'm thinking about that. I was chatting with a few underwriters here recently. I talked to this underwriter who must have been in the business for 40 years. So I thought, this is this is amazing, you know? And they had a great attitude. I was like, this is incredible. How have you survived this long and maintained such a good attitude in the industry for forty years? They said to me easy, I wake up every morning and I start my day with this prayer. I say, Lord, give me the patience of a CSR chasing loss runs. Give me the attention to detail of an auditor. But most of all, give me the unwavering confidence of that agent who already told the customer, don't worry, underwriting won't have a problem with it.

Raymond Moss: I love it. Isn't that the ubiquitous story? Every single day.

Ben Curtis: Yeah, I don't know. All right, so I made that underwriter up, but somebody out there is probably is probably that underwriter.

Raymond Moss: I don't think it would be too shocking to imagine that that is a pretty clear and concise perspective.

Ben Curtis: Whether that underwriter exists or not, I know that that agent exists.

Raymond Moss: Yeah, that's right.

Ben Curtis: Man.

Raymond Moss: That agent does. A couple times over.

Ben Curtis: All right, so insure techs have really come up a lot in conversation. And not just.

Raymond Moss: Yeah.

Ben Curtis: Amongst us. I mean, we're hearing discussions all over the place, and even more of these insurre techs popping up. Now, obviously that applies across a lot of different industries, but we're talking specifically in trucking, and we've seen that, I think, coming on the scene pretty dramatically and more uniquely in the in the last few years has been a pretty substantial shift in that direction, a lot more awareness around that. So.

Raymond Moss: Right.

Ben Curtis: We want to just starts with some discussion on it.

Raymond Moss: I mean if you think about it, last week we were talking about AI and truck insurance. And what is a big theme right now with insure techs and with the techno people in general when it comes to insurance is how do you apply revolutionary technology to insurance? Insurance is an old game. Technology revolution is new, you know?

Ben Curtis: Yeah. All right. So we're obviously not experts on this. We've got a fair amount of visibility into this. We've been discussing it a lot. We've had a number of conversations with our clients about it. But we're not portraying ourselves to be the experts in this by any means. We just it's a huge point of conversation and we wanted to take a lot of the various disparate conversations that have happened and kind of bring some of those together, have a c more comprehensive.

Raymond Moss: Yep.

Ben Curtis: Conversation here. about what we're seeing happen and of course look at the DOT analysis platform and take a look at what we can see for real is actually happening and compare that to some of the myths or stories or hypotheses about what's going on and see if we can bring at least some clarity to the elements of mystery that do exist. So that being said,.

Raymond Moss: Right. And and it.

Ben Curtis: I I've I've got four major ones on my mind that I'd want to So.

Raymond Moss: Yeah, and and in that same vein, it's funny because we have access to this really cool telescope in order to see the market with some really cool clarity. And a lot of times people make the assumption that, like, you guys must know everything about the market and nope, we don't. We don't. We just we have this cool telescope and we love looking through it. We love finding unique things and then You know, we have clients, we have customers that come to us and they go, Did you see this thing I saw? And we're like, Well, I didn't see that. But I'll but show me and then we look at it and it's really cool. So yeah.

Ben Curtis: Once you have the telescope, it's hard to imagine not being able to look through it again.

Raymond Moss: Right. Once you can see, it doesn't mean that you.

Ben Curtis: What whether you.

Raymond Moss: Have seen it all yet. It just means you can.

Ben Curtis: Gosh, no. Yeah. And you don't even have to understand everything you're seeing to not still.

Raymond Moss: Right.

Ben Curtis: Want to look through it and see more of what's there. It's fantastic.

Raymond Moss: Yeah, it is so fun to be able to see everything that's happening in the market and to peel back all the different layers and to ask the questions. Anyway.

Ben Curtis: Yep. All right. So there's four on the list that I've got here. Nirvana,.

Raymond Moss: All right.

Ben Curtis: HDVI. Those are the two that we've been talking the most about for the last few years probably. And then and and Cover Whale. I guess I'd probably put them in that same category. And then we've got a newer one here that's come on our radar recently that we're throwing the mix, and that's Corgi. Figured out the other figured out the other day that was a dog.

Raymond Moss: Yeah, the number the number of people the number of people that like I'm sitting at my desk one day and every I get all these, you know, emails and stuff from clients and customers and they're you know, what's going on with Corgi? Who's Corgi? Who's you what do you know about this? And I my first response is I have no idea. I have one dog and it's not a corgi. So let's figure this out together. That's been my perspective.

Ben Curtis: Yes, so let's set a little context for everybody listening, what insure techs are, what that category actually means, and then we do want to get into the platform here a little bit. We're gonna do at least a a cursory exploration of each of these companies' books and compare them a little bit and then talk about a few implications and hopefully send this thing off on at least an interesting direction and then people can comment and post. regarding this, your own thoughts and perspectives on all these things we talked about. But so let let's start with that. Define a little bit what is this category of insure tech, kind of an invented word here recently. What does that actually mean? And how do insure techs differ from a traditional insurance company or an MGA that people have been working with for decades?

Raymond Moss: Yeah, this is such a good question. People throw around the term like it actually is a defined term. and I don't know, maybe it is, but who gets to define that? It's it is it's a mashup of literally insurance and technology. Because what better way to describe what those entities entities are is it's the old world of insurance getting mashed together with the new world of technological innovation. And there is so much cool innovation to be had by that. So I don't know if that's an official definition, but that's really what it is. It's taking those two perspectives and marrying them together. Sometimes they get married together poorly and it ends up in divorce. Or sometimes they get married together beautifully and it ends up being a wonderful product. And you just don't know what it's gonna look like when they get combined until there's a little bit of, you know, experience in there and they get further down the road.

Ben Curtis: So like you said, who gets to define it though? It are these insure techs self-proclaimed insure techs? Or has.

Raymond Moss: I think so.

Ben Curtis: The industry basically decided so talk a little bit about that. What is the characteristic that defines, okay, this is an insure tech?

Raymond Moss: So they have a focus on technology in their sales and product pers life cycle. They focus on technology as their unique pitch, if it's an agent when they're selling, if it's an underwriter, you know, when they're when they're underwriting. Yeah, I think that really is the case of what defines them as an insurance, and really Anybody can do that, however, or I should say any insurer can choose to pitch themselves as an insure tech, but it becomes really obvious, you know, those that just try to graft on that label and those that really are that, whether it's good or bad.

Ben Curtis: Yeah, 'cause I think the important thing that I'm wanting to or one of the things that I'm wanting to differentiate is even the legacy insurance companies are incorporating technology into their process. It's not that.

Raymond Moss: Right. Right.

Ben Curtis: They are technologically void. It might it might not be their their.

Raymond Moss: Right. Some of spoiler, use some of the exact same technology. Lest we d you know, it's true. They use some of the exact same technology, same vendors. So.

Ben Curtis: Yeah. So interesting to know because depending on what the reason is for defining the term, you know, because that is one question. Does it even matter if someone's considered an insure tech or not? And and maybe it doesn't, depending on your use case, but we're wanting to understand and explain these terms in a better way so that we can use better language in communicating about them and then understand what are the important implications that go along with that. And does this apply or does this not apply? Right. So we're We're definitely not saying that InsureTech is the only companies that are employing technology, but they do seem to be a technology first insurance offering. Is that a fair way to say that?

Raymond Moss: I think that's a I think that's a fair way to say it. I'll I'll also just tack this statement onto the end here. And that is there are many defined terms in our industry. Motor carrier is a defined term. hours of service is a defined term. There's defined terms and defined acronyms galore. Insure tech is not one of those. So I'll I'll note that as well. But yeah, people or entities, insurance companies that that are ha putting a technology first approach to their product. That's a that's probably a.

Ben Curtis: Yeah.

Raymond Moss: A good rule of thumb.

Ben Curtis: All right. And then the other piece, I guess, that I would maybe get your feedback on this. The reason why a legacy insurance company wouldn't be considered an insure tech, even if they're deploying some of the same technology, because insure tech seems to be the category of those companies that got into insurance. I guess we sort of said this in a way by saying technology first, but Technology was their entry point into the insurance market. And really, and this is what we're seeing in trucking sp.

Raymond Moss: Or their unique offering.

Ben Curtis: Yeah, but what we're seeing in the trucking specifically, would you agree with this? A general or a an apparent not really strong understanding of truck insurance specifically, a very strong understanding of technology. So the technology is what's bringing them to the market, not the actual product itself. Is is that an accurate way to think about that and maybe a differentiator from some of the legacy insurers?

Raymond Moss: Yeah. That that's really I li I like that, although I don't know if that's entirely all encompassing because they they what I have seen at least is they pull people from the industry that do know what they're doing and pull them out of.

Ben Curtis: Sure, yeah.

Raymond Moss: Some long standing successful underwriting outfits in order to level up their level of expertise in this niche industry that is truck insurance. So they're not void of.

Ben Curtis: Sure.

Raymond Moss: Experience, but they didn't start with that experience and go, let's start an insurance company. They started with the technology idea and then added their insurance in ingredient to the mix. I think that's a good.

Ben Curtis: Yeah. All right.

Raymond Moss: Distinction there.

Ben Curtis: I I think so, because yeah, we don't want to misrepresent things and we're not saying that these insure techs don't know anything about insurance or they don't know anything about trucking. Like.

Raymond Moss: Right. Right.

Ben Curtis: You said, some of them do have longtime industry insiders who they have brought into their teams and they do have that deep understanding. But it does se.

Raymond Moss: Yeah, that's wonderful.

Ben Curtis: That does seem to be a characteristic though of these these companies, and one of the reasons why the insure techs are new is that to kind of fit in that blanket category. is you have to be this insurance or this technology first platform, which more definit definitionally is someone who is just on the scene in the last few years here as some of these new technologies have emerged.

Raymond Moss: Right. And that's understandable because what does technology innovate first? Technology innovates the simplest things first, and it gets more and more complex and innovates more and more complex things as time goes on. And the niche of trucking is very complex. The risk is very complex. It's not a homeowner's policy.

Ben Curtis: Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So let's let's take a look. I guess part of the reason we're alluding to that is because we we did research some of these before the show here. We were pulling them up in the dashboard. We do see some things that are well, I guess I don't want to color the picture too far before we get into it, but there are some signs at least that maybe there's less truck experience. knowledge present here. And that's why I wanted to frame up that context a little bit before we move into it. so a few things, like I guess one more piece of context in order to dig into this. The insure techs are a little bit elusive to discover, right? Because.

Raymond Moss: Yeah.

Ben Curtis: Unlike a Great West, for example, who if you want to see Great West, you look at the Great West paper. But if you want to see Nirvana, you can't go look at Nirvana paper. Because Nirvana doesn't write on an there.

Raymond Moss: There is no Nirvana paper.

Ben Curtis: Is no yeah, there is no Nirvana paper. And this.

Raymond Moss: Right.

Ben Curtis: Does seem to be a trend for or a consistent thing across these insure techs, right? None of them write on their own paper or their named paper. So it does seem like and maybe there's an exception out there somewhere, not that I'm aware of, is that the in sh I'm not aware of an insure tech who writes on a paper that's their own name, meaning that the insure tech name is really the market presence name only and not.

Raymond Moss: Yeah.

Ben Curtis: The actual writing paper or the ultimate financial backing behind the policy. It's.

Raymond Moss: Right.

Ben Curtis: Are you seeing the same thing?

Raymond Moss: Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I agree. It it's not the same as the fact that National Interstate has National Interstate in their paper, Acuity has Acuity in their paper, Great West has Great West in their paper. Well, to your point, there is no Nirvana paper. There's no HDVI paper. They are like In my mind I see them as a single purpose MGA. They have a paper they write on and they have a unique program that they that's what they do, that's what they focus on, a specific tech focused program. Whereas you get you get an an MGA that's got access to writing on a bunch of different papers, and that's common, right? And they might submit out to even some of the, you know, other markets that write on their own paper. But an insure tech, at least all so many of these examples that we find. They have their specific offering that they write on a paper for, so it's like they're a one product MGA. That's may that's an oversimplification, but it at least helps shed some light on the difference, in my experience.

Ben Curtis: Yeah. Now you did make the statement in there about they have one paper they write on, which many of them many of them do, but of but of course there's exceptions to that because Nirvana.

Raymond Moss: Yeah, well, you're right. I I said it was an oversimplification. Right.

Ben Curtis: Being the case in point there, we've got multiple papers that they write on, but not exclusively. And so that adds to the complexity of the situation, right? The writing on multiple pap.

Raymond Moss: Very true.

Ben Curtis: So it's so you have one program, one name in the industry, Nirvana, with what appears to be a general composite appetite. But they're placing that business on multiple papers and not exclusive papers. So it does make it elusive to actually see that market picture and have a good understanding of.

Raymond Moss: Right.

Ben Curtis: What that realistically looks like beyond just anecdotes or what they've published about themselves, right?

Raymond Moss: Yeah, definitely makes it more difficult to see the totality of their book, to see the totality of what's going on at them. But the cool thing is is our telescope can we can't bring it as perfectly into focus as we can with someone like Great West or Acuity or North International or a hundred others, right? But we can get a picture and it's so fun to be able to crawl through that picture and explore and see what we can see. So yeah, let's let's do that. What what do we which one are we curious.

Ben Curtis: Yeah. Okay.

Raymond Moss: About the most first?

Ben Curtis: Yeah, well we mentioned we mentioned Nirvana. That was the first in my list here, so why don't we look at Nirvana? And do you want to start a ma market intelligence or actually go to Market Explorer and look at the papers that Nirvana is writing on?

Raymond Moss: Yeah, we can do that. right. So I'm on market intelligence, but I have in Market Explorer pulled up here. I put Nirvana in. I can see where Nirvana's writing. They got three papers right now. There's really I don't know, that Falls Lake, it's gonna it's gonna disappear. As I understand they're rolling everything off of the Falls Lake paper, and we've seen that trend. Yeah.

Ben Curtis: Yeah, that was what, a few years a few years ago that they had policies there.

Raymond Moss: And they're we've seen that trend. They're they're falling off of Falls Lake and they're getting put on their other papers. So the majority of the of it is being tract if you watch this serious point America paper, it gives you a flavor for what's going on.

Ben Curtis: Yeah. All right. So let's open that paper in market intelligence then and see what we find there.

Raymond Moss: Okay. That sounds good. I'm gonna do that. See here. All right, here we go. Serious Point America insurance company. And we have Yeah, there we go. They're up.

Ben Curtis: Yeah. So a little interesting. Obviously they just started putting policies on this paper recently. So you see everything's either new business or that one to two year category, which also kind of th throws off the renewal rate because there's not much data in that renewal rate calculator.

Raymond Moss: Right.

Ben Curtis: But that yeah, yeah, so that really throws that data off. Okay, so scroll down. I'm curious to see the safety information.

Raymond Moss: Not too bad actually. Although.

Ben Curtis: Yeah.

Raymond Moss: That's probably because there's a lot of Like look, look how many single units are in here. And some of.

Ben Curtis: Right. Yeah.

Raymond Moss: These two to fives. Like, let's just do this. Let's just look at stuff that's six six units or greater. And then look at yeah, that's a much higher percentage. Still only twenty six percent red ISS.

Ben Curtis: Now let's pull up the MS Transverse paper just out of curiosity here. They did have a decent number.

Raymond Moss: Yeah, which.

Ben Curtis: Of policies on that.

Raymond Moss: I'm gonna clear this out and I'm gonna go back to here. Look at MS Transverse. So most of it isn't on this specialty paper. Most of it is on this MS Transverse insurance company paper. So let's pull up that one. inside of market intelligence here. And let's see what we get. So here's what's interesting. It appears that Nirvana is putting most of their fleet business on MS Transverse and most of their non fleet business on that serious point paper. Did you notice that distinction?

Ben Curtis: On that serious. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. So now let's look at the safety information here. This is most of their fleets.

Raymond Moss: Yeah, so Ugh, whoa, that's a lot more red than we saw, which I guess makes sense if they're putting most of their non fleet on Sirius Point and most of their fleet business on MS Transverse. So so again, like notice how this is so different than unpacking a traditional insurer's book of business. This is much more opaque. You can still find insights about it, but it's harder to see.

Ben Curtis: Yep. Yep. So now remember not everybody is watching. So let's just point out here a lot what is what is the actual percentage we're seeing this red ISS there.

Raymond Moss: So red ISS I see forty four percent is red ISS. And interestingly.

Ben Curtis: Yeah.

Raymond Moss: Enough, only one percent of this book is i.

Ben Curtis: Insufficient data.

Raymond Moss: Insufficient data, meaning they haven't had enough inspections for the FMCSA to rate them, right? So I got.

Ben Curtis: Yeah.

Raymond Moss: Forty four percent red, seventeen percent yellow, and thirty seven percent green.

Ben Curtis: Yeah, and then and then a decent percentage of alerts in almost every basic category except for hazmat and controlled substance. So there's.

Raymond Moss: Right. I mean.

Ben Curtis: Obviously a substantial appetite for some pretty legitimate and pretty serious risks in this in this book.

Raymond Moss: If insurance is about risk, we are about insurance.

Ben Curtis: Yep.

Raymond Moss: Here.

Ben Curtis: Now, once again, just to make sure we're very clear on this, a lot of this business we can see is Nirvana business, but we're not saying.

Raymond Moss: Right.

Ben Curtis: That this book is exclusively nirvana business. So that's where your comment about this is an opaque look at that. This is giving us a strong indicator of that, but we don't want to overstate.

Raymond Moss: Right.

Ben Curtis: The clarity with which we're actually looking at this because there is a little bit.

Raymond Moss: Right.

Ben Curtis: Of oddity in this with a few other policies being on this paper. All right, so.

Raymond Moss: Absolutely.

Ben Curtis: We can see that in Market Explorer though, where we do have a cleaner look at that book. Let's just look at a couple other ways to split this out because we can't see it with these exact same graphs. But I'm just curious, let's add a filter there and see. We see there are twelve twelve hundred and seventy-three total policies represented here. Let's go to that ISS and just see how many policies are in that red category. And we can just do our own little calculation here to get an idea.

Raymond Moss: All right.

Ben Curtis: Of that overall book.

Raymond Moss: Three hundred and fifty, so I got of those twelve seventy three, I got three hundred and fifty that are red ISS right now.

Ben Curtis: All right, so I just punched that in the calculator. So that's 27.5% of their overall.

Raymond Moss: Wow.

Ben Curtis: Book that's Red ISS. So now once again, this includes all of those papers. So this is watered down with all that single unit business. It's on that's on Sirius Point, for example. But across their entire book, that that shows us what their red ISS category is. Now I'm also curious, let's let's clear that one and let's just see. How much of their book has an alert. We can add add basic alerts. I don't really care which ones. I just want to see how many of their motor carriers have one or more alerts. Yeah. So we're.

Raymond Moss: Alright. Have at least one. Alright, let's do that.

Ben Curtis: Going to select everything. Yeah. So 511 results. Once again, that's across their entire book. Yeah.

Raymond Moss: Yeah, that's almost half of their business. Has at least one alert.

Ben Curtis: So here's it'd be another interesting thing. Let's leave that filter on. Go to units, and let's just take that single unit. Let's take everything five and below out of that to not distort the results here. So we're gonna take six and more unit motor carriers with at least one. That's three hundred and sixty-four. So there's less, but now let's clear the Yeah, let's clear the alert and unit filters and see how much of the book is actually that. So we've got what is it, three hundred and eighty-four? Is that what that was? But leave the number leave the six plus units because I wanna see what percentage of their actual six or more unit book has alerts.

Raymond Moss: All right, there you go. Six ninety.

Ben Curtis: So if I punch that in the calculator, 55%. So of their.

Raymond Moss: Wow.

Ben Curtis: Of their book of motor carriers with six or more units, we jump to 55% of that book has at least one basic alert.

Raymond Moss: Yeah, that's pretty profound.

Ben Curtis: So just interesting ways to slice and dice this, but obviously this is a program.

Raymond Moss: Yeah.

Ben Curtis: For troubled motor carriers.

Raymond Moss: Yeah, that's I you could say it that way. It's a program for motor carriers that have higher basic alerts. That's probably the most agnostic way in which to say that.

Ben Curtis: Yeah, that's true.

Raymond Moss: Yeah. For 'cause for whatever reason, they do.

Ben Curtis: All right, so we'll compare that to HDVI in a second, but while we're on this topic though, because then this'll translate forward into our next insure text that we unpack. Why don't you just switch over to market intelligence a second? Cause let's let's go ahead and compare this to something else. So let's put in that same filter set. We're gonna leave now to a year ago, but we're gonna take any number of trucks and just go to that six plus.

Raymond Moss: Right. Got it.

Ben Curtis: Yep. And we're going to focus on the safety score. So let's just go ahead and remind ourselves of that again. So we're looking at just at red ISS, 45% on that MS Transverse paper. Let's compare that to what Great West looks like, for example. So the same filter.

Raymond Moss: All right.

Ben Curtis: Set, we're looking at the same unit count. Because what we want to see.

Raymond Moss: You want me to?

Ben Curtis: Is is this just what that subset of motor carriers looks like? And everybody who ensures those motor carriers has that on their books.

Raymond Moss: Alright, so I'm gonna leave all the filters in place. I'm just gonna swap out Great West and I again, whoa, did you see that? We went down to.

Ben Curtis: My gosh.

Raymond Moss: Nine percent Red ISS, so they have a very different underwriting discipline at Great West versus what's being put on this MS Transverse paper. For sure. I mean.

Ben Curtis: Yeah. So once again, for people not watching, forty eight hundred policies on Great West books of motor carriers with six or more units. Nine percent of that book is read ISS. Okay, so let's try a few others. Who else you want to try? Acuity maybe?

Raymond Moss: That's a good one. I keep hearing their name coming up. Everyone's talking about acuity right now. So here we go. See what acuities look like. even less. Look at that. Five percent.

Ben Curtis: Wow. Yeah, so 2100 motor carriers in that book, in that profile. And yeah, five percent red ISS. All right, let's do one.

Raymond Moss: Fascinating.

Ben Curtis: Let's do one or two more. Who else might be a little sketchy still in the the traditional.

Raymond Moss: Okay, let's I I'm gonna go I'm gonna try Northland, let's just see what we get. I really Okay, a little more, but still.

Ben Curtis: Okay. There you go.

Raymond Moss: Thirteen percent.

Ben Curtis: Thirteen percent for Northland, twelve hundred policies. All right, so let's throw in well try Sentry.

Raymond Moss: Okay. Let's try Sentry. Loading up Sentry. And we get 19%. It expanded out a little bit.

Ben Curtis: There you go, okay. Nineteen percent. All right, so there's at least some benchmarks. What we just looked at with with Nirvana. We're gonna unpack a few others, but now we kind of sandwich in here. That's for context what this small what fleet down into that little bit larger nonfleet category.

Raymond Moss: Yeah.

Ben Curtis: To just take a few of the real small motor carriers out of there that distort the numbers a little bit just and and only looking at the the ISS score alone is not the most granular thing. It just gives us a high level picture though, right, of how how much of that Harrier risk is on the books.

Raymond Moss: Right. It is helpful to Yeah, it's helpful to be able to set your understanding for what their underwriting appetite actually is because all we're doing is looking at the data. All we're doing is looking at the reality of what is currently there now.

Ben Curtis: Yeah. Okay. All right. So Ray, before we jump into H D V I and the next couple insurre techs we want to look at, I just have to show you this I found on Nirvana's website.

Raymond Moss: Yeah.

Ben Curtis: Something really fascinating. So let me let me share this with you a second. Okay. So Nirvana posts on their website these wind stories by.

Raymond Moss: Yeah, sweet.

Ben Curtis: By month. So here's what I was looking at. In June, they list in here these wins of motor carriers that they've written recently. Well, what we discovered.

Raymond Moss: Anonymously.

Ben Curtis: Yeah, exactly. They just put some general category information here. They don't tell you the DOT number or the motor carrier name. They just write this little blurb about what they liked about them on a few basic parameters. What's great about this though is that they also list in here the premium that they bound it at.

Raymond Moss: Yeah, that's.

Ben Curtis: But with the data they share and with the advanced tools we have, sometimes we have the ability to go find this actual account and be able to look at the detailed profile of this motor carrier that they're celebrating the win on, which just gives so much more clarity into.

Raymond Moss: Right.

Ben Curtis: That appetite and that underwriting perspective when they're telling us this win, and then we can compare that with not the few generic details they put in here, but with the full motor carrier profile. So do you want to Do that on one of these here before we move on.

Raymond Moss: Yeah, totally fun.

Ben Curtis: Okay, so this is the motor carrier that Nirvana is saying that they won in June, so just last month here. So those of you who aren't watching, just listening, I'm just gonna read off some of the information here. So they're saying that this is a general freight carrier in a fleet category. They're listing 150 power units, AL and GL coverages, they're saying one point seven million bound premium, and this is in Illinois. So they note A few things that they liked about this account. They said they loved the years in business and the low out of service percentage. And then here's their.

Raymond Moss: And.

Ben Curtis: Little write-up on it. The insured wanted options, not a single take it or leave it quote. Nirvana put both a first dollar and a deductible base structure on the table side by side, giving them room to choose the terms that actually fit their risk tolerance. Staying engaged through a few rounds of back and forth rather than just pushing one program is what won the account. All right, cool.

Raymond Moss: The first thing that comes to my mind is man, I wish I could know what motor carrier this was, 'cause it's it's one point seven for A L and G L, which is mostly AL.

Ben Curtis: Alright, so let's see if we can find it. I'm gonna I've got Nirvana up here as well, like we were just looking at before. So I'm gonna go and grab Illinois. Yep, we know it's a large fleet. So we're gonna go large.

Raymond Moss: Yeah. Well we know it's in Illinois. Alright, so now we're just looking at Nirvana and Illinois. Alright, hundred plus units in Illinois with Nirvana.

Ben Curtis: And then we're gonna go to effective date because they just wrote it in June. So let's go to effective date in June. Okay, so we got three options.

Raymond Moss: Ha we only have three to pick from. This can't be that hard.

Ben Curtis: All right, look at this. Effective date was twenty twenty five. So this is a renewal. That's not business they just wrote. It's.

Raymond Moss: Yeah. So.

Ben Curtis: Not the three hundred unit. So it's probably this guy right here. And either that unit is just.

Raymond Moss: So we got one to choose from.

Ben Curtis: An updated MCS one fifty or or they rounded the number in what they put on their website there. All right, so.

Raymond Moss: Right.

Ben Curtis: Let's compare that here with with those numbers, right? So they said they loved years in business and low out of service. So just be interesting to see. Okay, out of service rate just below the national average. Wow, look at this though. Red ISS eighty eight. Let's look at the basic scores. fascinating.

Raymond Moss: My. No wonder they didn't highlight the basic scores that they liked on their recent win on the website. Alert for unsafe.

Ben Curtis: Yeah.

Raymond Moss: Driving, alert for hours of service, sixty one on vehicle maintenance, fifty five on driver fitness. They are hey, they have a zero and controlled substance. So that's good.

Ben Curtis: Yeah. Yep. So definitely some stuff going on there. I mean it is a larger fleet, so you'd expect some scores, but.

Raymond Moss: Right.

Ben Curtis: And not bad. This definitely fits that story, though we saw that they write a lot of.

Raymond Moss: It does.

Ben Curtis: They write a lot of business that does have some have some hair on it. So let's take a look at the cargo.

Raymond Moss: Right.

Ben Curtis: Here. Yep, all right, general freight. So that's all they have marked on the MCS one hundred fifty. And that's exactly what they said in here was that this was a general general.

Raymond Moss: Yeah, general for a carrier.

Ben Curtis: Freight carrier. So here's what's great though. This, we've got this AI cargo summary. So the AI cargo summary is actually going to give us a better idea of what the underwriter actually wrote on.

Raymond Moss: I love using this because the the the cargo summary and DOT analysis goes out and does a deep a deep analysis of all the shippers that this motor carrier is hauling.

Ben Curtis: Shippers f identified during inspections, yeah.

Raymond Moss: Yeah, shippers identified during inspections does a profile of all of their cargo and then we can see, yeah, they list general cargo, but we'll look at what it actually is food and beverage, paper and packaging, retail and consumer goods. What else we got? boy, industrial.

Ben Curtis: Look at this, Ray.

Raymond Moss: And chemical.

Ben Curtis: Wow, a huge,.

Raymond Moss: That does not seem.

Ben Curtis: Huge list of companies that they have shipped industrial and chemical for.

Raymond Moss: Yeah, really. That's fascinating. So they'd say General Freight. I'm sure the underwriter knew that they do more than what is considered General Freight.

Ben Curtis: Yeah. Presumably, but either way, fascinating to be able to see the motor carrier in detail that they were willing to write and the terms under which they wrote.

Raymond Moss: For one point seven million.

Ben Curtis: Them for one point seven million. Yeah. Now interesting. Let's let's take.

Raymond Moss: Yeah. Wow, that's fascinating.

Ben Curtis: A quick look at the history here. Not only of the scores, but look, they took them from Wesco.

Raymond Moss: Steady. Yeah. That's so fascinating.

Ben Curtis: We've been talking about that for a while that Wesco's kind of winding their book down, so MS Transverse picked them up from there.

Raymond Moss: Yeah.

Ben Curtis: Okay. All right. Well, anyways, that's fun. Nirvana posts all these win stories, so it's a lot of fun. You can go through each of these categories. There's a bunch of other ones listed. See if you can find them in the platform. It's just a fascinating piece of information.

Raymond Moss: Yeah, that's super cool.

Ben Curtis: To be able to compare what Nirvana says with the the detailed information.

Raymond Moss: Look and.

Ben Curtis: There.

Raymond Moss: Did you notice on that one it actually tells you that it was so Ben pulled up another one on Nirvana's side, another wind story. This is a reefer carrier from June but it says renewal. So just go look.

Ben Curtis: Right.

Raymond Moss: At look for the renewal in Diotinalysis for a eighty unit in Washington State. And you know the premium, seven hundred K. That's sweet.

Ben Curtis: Okay, that's a lot of time with Nirvana. We gotta get through at least briefly three more of these insure techs here. So.

Raymond Moss: Yeah.

Ben Curtis: Let's let's move on. yeah, let's let's jump into HDVI.

Raymond Moss: Alright, let's see. There we go. I'm gonna pull up HDVI. I was I was still on Sundry, we were talking about that before, so I'm just gonna clear that out and I'm gonna go over to Market Explorer and let's put up HDVI.

Ben Curtis: Yeah. So H D VI's a little bit easier here 'cause they're not quite as convoluted as Nirvana as far as the writing papers. Yeah, they've got everything on that Spinnaker paper.

Raymond Moss: Everything's on yeah. Everything's on Spinnaker and it looks like we got call it three hundred and sixty policies. Let's see what they look like.

Ben Curtis: So let let just dwell on that for a second though. Nirvana.

Raymond Moss: Yeah.

Ben Curtis: And HDVI both came on the scene relatively around the same time. I think a lot of people, at least from just conversations.

Raymond Moss: I think he.

Ben Curtis: We generally have, feel like Nirvana and HDVI are head to head competitors, right?

Raymond Moss: Right. That's kind of the the sense everyone gets in the market, at least that I'm talking to, is that they're two flavors of the same thing that kind of started around the same time.

Ben Curtis: But we had just over twelve hundred results for Nirvana and we got three hundred and fifty.

Raymond Moss: Yeah.

Ben Curtis: For HD VI, right?

Raymond Moss: Yeah, they were pushing thirteen hundred on for Nirvana. We got.

Ben Curtis: Yeah.

Raymond Moss: Three hundred and fifty ish for HDVI. Let let's look at that in market intelligence and see what that looks like. Pulling up Spinnaker. Let's see what we got. Alright. And I will note that there's sometimes there's multiple papers out here, but I have been told from many different people they are not writing in Spinnaker specialty. They are writing on Spinnaker.

Ben Curtis: Yes.

Raymond Moss: Insurance company paper. So let's pull that up. 360 policies. So I think there's probably Yeah.

Ben Curtis: Very closely matches the.

Raymond Moss: This is again that whole like these guys are a little more o opaque because I think there's a couple other things that are on this paper, but I think the vast, vast, vast majority of it is HDVI. And from what we can tell, yeah, ninety.

Ben Curtis: Yeah, it's gotta be what, maybe maybe a handful of legacy policies that are.

Raymond Moss: Eight, ninety nine percent of this is HDVI. I believe.

Ben Curtis: So a very, very accurate look at HDVI.

Raymond Moss: Yes. So all right, so we're pulling them up. They are growing, I will just note. So that.

Ben Curtis: Also, look at this. So they're not split across multiple papers. We did note like for Nirvana that a bunch of their single unit business.

Raymond Moss: Yeah.

Ben Curtis: Was on one paper. But here, this is their entire.

Raymond Moss: Right. They're non fleet business.

Ben Curtis: Book. They're not writing that small as much. They're definitely more focused on that small fleet market.

Raymond Moss: Look that, the ten to forty nine unit market. They have a pr that that is their predominant part of their book.

Ben Curtis: Yeah.

Raymond Moss: Look at that, two hundred and thirty seven fleets in the ten to forty nine space. So you get the like small, medium sized fleet, hey, they seem like they're doing it. That's that's cool. Let's l out of out of fun.

Ben Curtis: Now, also a a decent renewal well before you switch that just real quick to cover what's here. Decent renewal rate above the market average and the relationship.

Raymond Moss: Yeah, that's pretty cool actually.

Ben Curtis: Duration. You remember Nirvana looked like everything was basically in that first one or two years of business, but they actually have a.

Raymond Moss: Yeah.

Ben Curtis: Decent little trend here of four years worth of business in their books.

Raymond Moss: Now I will point out though, remember they started on Falls Lake and I think the reason that relationship duration wasn't as long is because they had rolled.

Ben Curtis: Okay.

Raymond Moss: Stuff over. So I think they're both in that like four ish, five ish year, and it's just.

Ben Curtis: Okay.

Raymond Moss: Harder to see with Nirvana because they switched papers from their original Falls Lake. So just throw that out there.

Ben Curtis: Yeah, interesting.

Raymond Moss: Too.

Ben Curtis: All right, so let's look at the safety information here.

Raymond Moss: I here before you get to the safety information, I'm gonna point out the operating radius because this is interesting, and I see this on many insure techs, is that the operating radius of the motor carriers that insure techs write is so often heavily weighted towards that thousand mile radius motor carrier. And my assumption is because what are the insure techs relying on? ELD data. And who has a lot of ELD data? The long radius motor carriers. And so What motor carriers are in these insure textbook of business? Long radius motor carriers that are going out with a radius of a thousand mile plus. So that's one of those anecdotes that it tracks. You can see it in market intelligence. Super cool.

Ben Curtis: Yeah, interesting. Okay, so let's glance at that safety data. Right now we're looking at their entire book, which is less skewed than the others because they just their book doesn't have those real small motor carriers in there. Well or or the or.

Raymond Moss: Multiple papers, right. Yeah. And they seem like they've been.

Ben Curtis: The single unit guys. That's what really distorts the the safety numbers.

Raymond Moss: Right. The single unit guys, because single unit guys aren't gonna have as many inspections, they're not gonna have as many basic score calculations and ISS calculations, that's true.

Ben Curtis: Alright, all right. So HDVI has what thirty percent red ISS in their book?

Raymond Moss: Thirty percent red ISS. Yeah.

Ben Curtis: Yep. Now there's not many results there, but just to keep the comparison true with what we looked at with Nirvana and those other insurers, why don't you do the six plus filter just to get that true side by side comparison there? It's not gonna.

Raymond Moss: Sure. Just to make sure. All right, so we'll keep it. I'm I'm changing it so I'm just looking at the six plus. It didn't change a lot. We went up by what, was that one percent? I I'm at thirty one percent red ISS.

Ben Curtis: Yep. Okay. So interesting. They definitely they're kind of in between what we saw in most of the traditional insurance companies in Nirvana from a red ISS standpoint. A reasonable.

Raymond Moss: Yeah. Yeah.

Ben Curtis: Renewal rate. And yeah, obviously a clear focus from an appetite standpoint there on that small fleet business. So really interesting.

Raymond Moss: Yeah. And they're growing. So that's hey, that's a good thing for them. That's cool. Interestingly enough, I'll just point out, if you look at the who they took business from and who they lost business to, look what it is. MS Transverse paper. So those insure techs are trading punches. Fascinating. Yeah, that's kind of cool.

Ben Curtis: Does seem like that. Yeah. Okay. So lots more we could unpack with this, but just to continue with our general overview here, let's just talk briefly about Cover Whale. And boy, if we thought Nirvana was elusive, Cover Whale is really elusive as far as.

Raymond Moss: Right.

Ben Curtis: Identifying their market presence. They're writing on, I think they list on their website eight different insurance companies.

Raymond Moss: Right. Yeah.

Ben Curtis: That they write papers with. And at least four or five of those have substantial business on them. So I know some of the key papers that they're writing on are gonna be that accredited, Trishura, Asca, and Everspan papers. But.

Raymond Moss: And everyone not everyone, most people know that, you know, there's there's other programs that are in Trishura. There's other programs that are on some of these papers. So yeah, you talk about elusive. It is harder.

Ben Curtis: Yeah.

Raymond Moss: To get a picture of what Cover Whale's really doing. The best I can the best way I can put it, from what I have been able to tr you know, collect anecdotally, is that watching that EverSpan paper is is a is a decent way with which to track How Cover Whale is really doing. And that's.

Ben Curtis: Well clear it out and clear it out and pull up Ever Span. Let's just see what it looks like.

Raymond Moss: Alright, so I cleared my filters. Let's pull up Everspan and let's just see what we get. So I've got thirteen hundred, yeah, down fifty six percent, which th I look at this every once in a while and that is exactly what I usually see. It's like they they are on a treadmill.

Ben Curtis: It it almost seems like something's broken. I mean, look at that renewal rate. It's that's it's almost impossible numbers.

Raymond Moss: Right. I mean I've heard some pretty horrible stories from motor carriers that have been with cover whale. So.

Ben Curtis: But from somebody just not not watching here, we've got what sixteen percent new business renewal rate, eleven percent.

Raymond Moss: Yeah, sixteen percent renewal. With.

Ben Curtis: At the f at the second renewal. I mean, yeah.

Raymond Moss: Ugh. That's painful.

Ben Curtis: And and year.

Raymond Moss: Right.

Ben Curtis: Over year, the book decline is what what percentage decline do we have there?

Raymond Moss: Fifty six percent. Wow.

Ben Curtis: Yeah, so it's something I I don't know. I wanna be careful not to make an too strong of statements here. I'm wondering if if similar to the Falls Lake, if there's a chance that some of this business is actually just moving into other papers or something is distorting this, it almost seems like impossibly.

Raymond Moss: Well we can answer a little bit of that.

Ben Curtis: Bad numbers.

Raymond Moss: Because you look at the lost business though and look, they lost.

Ben Curtis: Yeah.

Raymond Moss: The top place that the business went was progressive. The next top was Geico. There is the.

Ben Curtis: Progressive Geico. Yeah.

Raymond Moss: Accredited.

Ben Curtis: Yeah, that's true. So this is not just moving to other papers. Those.

Raymond Moss: Right.

Ben Curtis: Are companies that are clear competitors to EverSpan andor Cover Whale, depending on how much of this is truly Cover Whale.

Raymond Moss: A huge percentage of the a huge percentage of the motor carriers leaving the Everspan paper are going to Progressive, they are going to GEICO, they are going to other other papers. So it's not just that cover whale shifting it from paper to paper. At least not.

Ben Curtis: Yeah, all right. So note note this though, Ray. Look back at the fleet size. Look what all of this is. This Yeah. If you.

Raymond Moss: Yeah, it's a single unit, it's two to five units, it's predominantly small motor carriers.

Ben Curtis: Yeah, almost the entire book is that five or less unit. So that does explain why a lot of it's going progressive and Geico. They have an enormous amount of single unit or very low unit motor carriers.

Raymond Moss: Correct. Right. Yep.

Ben Curtis: So tough to say exactly what this reflects as far as how Coverwell is doing overall. Any anecdotal evidence or information that our listeners have and want to share would be fascinating to know what type of business for those of you who are writing with Coverwheel, what type of business are they taking? Where are you finding success?

Raymond Moss: How long does it last?

Ben Curtis: Yeah, yeah, for sure. But it'd be great to know if they do have some kind of niche that they're really fitting. That works great or what the story is there.

Raymond Moss: Right.

Ben Curtis: You always just wonder seeing stuff like this though too, if this is an example, like we kind of talked about at the beginning, of very technology heavy, less industry understanding, and are there some misses there that's causing this to really struggle? You just wonder.

Raymond Moss: Right. I yeah. Again, it's great to be able to see this information because you can ask questions that you never before could have had a hope of answering and now you're finally.

Ben Curtis: Mm-hmm.

Raymond Moss: Able to ask those questions that you just weren't allowed to ask before. And you can you can begin to find answers. And that is so informative when you are developing a strategy in the marketplace. It's valuable. All right, who who are we going to next?

Ben Curtis: Talk about one of the new players. We heard about Corgi. We mentioned that at the beginning.

Raymond Moss: Yeah.

Ben Curtis: So Corgi is writing on the carrier guard paper. Now they're not brand new. I believe a couple years ago they jumped into this space. And by this space, I mean they jumped into the insurance market. They do a bunch of different insurance coverages. It looks like they just recently jumped into the into the transportation space. Yeah.

Raymond Moss: Trucking and into trucking. Yeah, I was I was wondering where yeah, what you what you meant by that. So you you mean they've they're an insur tech who's been in the insurance game for a couple of years, but now they're just dipping their toe in trucking and in transportation. Yeah.

Ben Curtis: That's what it seems like. Yeah, 'cause they're writing on this carrier guard paper. We figured that out. So let's look at Carrier Guard. All right, so here's what we've got forty total policies. So not many policies, but we have no renewal.

Raymond Moss: Brand new. Which.

Ben Curtis: Rate shown there. Everything is new business. Everything is that zero to one year. So let's just see how long we'll back up the back up the the calendar there. Let's go to ninety days ago.

Raymond Moss: Thirty days ago. Well can we go to thirty? So let's see if we get a thirty. Hey, six policies. So they they're brand new. Let's go to ninety. Zero. Okay.

Ben Curtis: Sure, thirty. All right, so s six policies thirty days ago. So just double check. Yeah, ninety days. All right, zero. So one hundred percent of their business was written in the last ninety days. Almost all of it in the last thirty days. Now,.

Raymond Moss: Right. So they're.

Ben Curtis: They wrote forty policies in that time frame.

Raymond Moss: That's cool. Great. Good for them.

Ben Curtis: Yeah. So and now just to look at the market segment here, the majority of that is single unit. So we got twenty-three single unit, eleven in the two to five category, you got three in the six to nine, and then three fleets. So.

Raymond Moss: Yeah.

Ben Curtis: Very interesting.

Raymond Moss: I guess we'll see.

Ben Curtis: Also looking at the map, pretty diversified. Like they don't just have one or two states they started in, they're pretty spread out across the country.

Raymond Moss: Well, you can see it in the paper name. This is a risk retention group. And for the you know, if you haven't listened to that episode, it was a couple weeks ago, we did an episode on unpacking risk retention groups. So pair that knowledge with, you know, what we're doing here. Fascinating. But there you go. That's why they're in a bunch of these states all simultaneously coming out of the gate, because they're a risk retention group.

Ben Curtis: Yeah, and really interesting too, piggybacking on that conversation, because risk retention groups also seem to blend very well with the insure tech space in the sense that the risk retention.

Raymond Moss: Yeah.

Ben Curtis: Groups feel like a lot of those stories, they're interested in that enticing premium that's out there for trucking. They don't necessarily know the trucking space, they just have shelf space for insurance and want to fill some of that with that enticing.

Raymond Moss: Right.

Ben Curtis: Truck premium. So pair that with this insure tech who's like, We've got this great technology and we're gonna.

Raymond Moss: Yeah.

Ben Curtis: Go out there and clean house and trucking. And so they partner up with this RRG who just has some shelf space and they're like, Great, we'll put some business on your shelf and that feels like what's happening in some of these cases here, right? 'Cause Corgi's not the only one that's putting business on an RG paper.

Raymond Moss: Yeah, well, this is always interesting. I mean, we only they only have forty policies, but look where they took it from. So obviously they have some new authorities in there, but of the ones that they actually took from elsewhere, they got a couple from Progressive, a couple from Accredited, a couple from another risk retention group, a couple from Everspan. They do have one from Canal. Another ret.

Ben Curtis: Yeah, so that.

Raymond Moss: R risk retention group. Yeah, i it's fascinating.

Ben Curtis: Yeah. So interesting. We just looked at Everspan talking about coverwheel there. So just click on that a second. What what policies did they take from Everspan?

Raymond Moss: They got two.

Ben Curtis: Interesting.

Raymond Moss: D and E freight and Gaios trucking. So an eight unit and a single unit.

Ben Curtis: Yeah, so that yeah, so click on that eight unit a second. Let's just just be curious to see what they took from Everspan. gee. So red ISS, unsatisfactory.

Raymond Moss: Yeah.

Ben Curtis: Accident rate, forty eight percent driver out of service.

Raymond Moss: My.

Ben Curtis: So let's take a look at the scores on this guy a minute. Just cause this is gonna be indicative of.

Raymond Moss: My god. Unsafe driving ninety three percent alert. Hours of service ninety seven percent alert. Driver fitness eighty eight percent alert. Controlled substance is not an alert, but it is at seventy six percent. So.

Ben Curtis: It's like two points below alert, yeah.

Raymond Moss: Yeah, this is getting this is getting real.

Ben Curtis: Over jump over to the history a second. Let's just see. Who knows it came from Everspan, but I'm curious.

Raymond Moss: Boy. Never span. K L me go to a let me go.

Ben Curtis: Okay.

Raymond Moss: To car let me go to equipment here. Let's just see what they thirteen inspected power units. So are they eight units? No. Most likely not.

Ben Curtis: Doubtful. Yep.

Raymond Moss: Let's see what they're doing for cargo. So they say general freight on their MCS 150, and they wrote in Amazon retail on the free tech space on their MCS-150. But here's what they're actually doing.

Ben Curtis: Yeah, 'cause that's not a 'cause that's not a field, right? There has to be a write in.

Raymond Moss: Yeah, that's a write in. So they wrote the words Amazon retail back in January on their MCS one fifty. But they're they're doing kinda all all sorts.

Ben Curtis: Are they hauling for Amazon?

Raymond Moss: Of stuff. I don't see Amazon as a single ins I mean they could be, but it doesn't appear at and they got a lot of other.

Ben Curtis: Interesting. Yeah.

Raymond Moss: Stuff that they are hauling.

Ben Curtis: Okay, so I just wanted to see history unless you got something else you want to look at here.

Raymond Moss: No, no, history, here we go.

Ben Curtis: Okay. So we know they're with Ever Span. Let's see what I want to see what actually happened there. Alright, so it looks like that.

Raymond Moss: So.

Ben Curtis: Was their first coverage was Everspan a few years ago or back in twenty twenty five. look at that though.

Raymond Moss: Looks like yeah. Yeah, in twenty twenty five.

Ben Curtis: So their policy was effective June of twenty twenty five. It renewed in June of twenty six, but then almost it.

Raymond Moss: And was immediately cancelled? Thirty days later?

Ben Curtis: So it's like, did Everstan process the renewal not realizing what they were doing? And then we're like, never.

Raymond Moss: Apparently.

Ben Curtis: Mind. I don't know. Something led to a cancellation a month after the renewal. And then.

Raymond Moss: Right.

Ben Curtis: Here we go. We go from one insure tech to another. So brand new Corgi jumps.

Raymond Moss: Yeah.

Ben Curtis: In to yeah, save the day and picks up this this motor carrier. Now.

Raymond Moss: All right.

Ben Curtis: We always say like there's no we're we're not gonna be the judge of whether things are good or bad, right?

Raymond Moss: It just is. It just is, said.

Ben Curtis: So mm maybe they got paid well for this premium, but it is interesting as a new market entrant, Corgi just writing their first business here in the last thirty to sixty days. What kind of business are they writing? Fascinating to see this profile as one of their few larger.

Raymond Moss: Right. And this is just a random motor carrier we clicked on here in their book. Like, let's look at the three fleets.

Ben Curtis: But it is one of the few that's that has more than more than five units though. They've only got a handful that are more than five units. So it is one of the few in that category.

Raymond Moss: Yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah, that's so fascinating. Here's here's another one. Where'd they come from? yeah. This one's got some volatile equipment numbers here as well. So it's so fascinating to be able to have this data at your fingertips. look at that.

Ben Curtis: Yeah, decent decent scores in this. Yeah.

Raymond Moss: Decent scores in this one. This that's not bad. That's cool. Maybe they got a good one. That's great.

Ben Curtis: Before we jump off this topic here, I'd you know, let me send you this link, right? Pull up Corgi's.

Raymond Moss: Okay.

Ben Curtis: Site, they actually have their underwriting guidelines posted. And so that's always fascinating as well, right? Like we wanna.

Raymond Moss: Right.

Ben Curtis: We wanna take into account what they're saying. This platform just gives us the ability to validate it. So here's really interesting. They say what they insure and what they don't insure.

Raymond Moss: Yeah, this is cool. Alright, so we're on Corgi's website. What is this? It says at the bottom here. what what we don't insures.

Ben Curtis: Well, so yeah, the highlighted stuff though, what they don't ensure. Passenger, household, livestock, tow. So that's fine. I noticed the freight.

Raymond Moss: Garbage and waste haulers.

Ben Curtis: I noticed the freight on the market intelligence page there did not have any of those categories. Most of it was general freight and pretty generic stuff. Yeah, but what is that note at the bottom there?

Raymond Moss: Yeah. Didn't find anyone that was hauling explosives and there was no radioactive material, so hey. Yeah, at the bottom it says we also can't write you if you have an out of service order, well I guess that makes sense, or unaddressed CSA scores in unsafe driving or crash indicator.

Ben Curtis: Well, what was interesting though is that account that we just looked at with eight trucks, we had like a what wasn't like a forty eight percent driver out of service.

Raymond Moss: Yeah. Hold on, hold on. Yeah, let's go back to that. What was that? Was that this that was this one right here I had up. D and E Freight. Yeah. Okay, D and E Freight. And looking at the score.

Ben Curtis: Fourty Yeah.

Raymond Moss: They have ninety.

Ben Curtis: Hans.

Raymond Moss: Three percent unsafe driving. Alert. They have ninety seven.

Ben Curtis: Yeah. So go and.

Raymond Moss: Percent hours of service alert. They say.

Ben Curtis: Interesting.

Raymond Moss: Right on their website, they can't write you if they have unsafe driving or crash indicator. a crash indicator. What was their crash indicator? Well that one was zero. But they definitely have unsafe driving.

Ben Curtis: Yeah, no, no crash indicator. Okay, so let's do this then real quick because this is great to be able to validate information. That's the whole point, right? Like if because we we don't have a reason to assume that their guidelines are wrong. This is valuable information to have. We just want to be able to compare it with what's actually happening. All right, well.

Raymond Moss: Well now I have a reason to assume their guidelines are wrong.

Ben Curtis: Let's let's go to market explorer though, where we've got the best filtering tools.

Raymond Moss: All right, so Market Explorer got it pulled up. What do you want me to do?

Ben Curtis: Pull up carrier guard there. So let's let's.

Raymond Moss: Carry your guard.

Ben Curtis: Just put in their filters, right? They told us that.

Raymond Moss: Yep.

Ben Curtis: They're not gonna write a unsafe driving alert, right? So go to a.

Raymond Moss: Alright, so let me go to alert type and I'll say show only those with unsafe driving. Is that what you want?

Ben Curtis: Yeah, let's see if there's any of those. So look only we've only got the, you know, thirty or forty results here. Interesting.

Raymond Moss: Huh.

Ben Curtis: So they've got five policies already that include unsafe.

Raymond Moss: That.

Ben Curtis: Driving.

Raymond Moss: I thought they didn't write that. Well,.

Ben Curtis: Fascinating.

Raymond Moss: That is so that is so fascinating because they wrote all those in the last call it thirty forty ish days, at least within the last two months, and they have exactly what their underwriting appetite says they don't want.

Ben Curtis: Well, the effective dates right there actually. The effective dates right there. Look look at that. Seven twenty three,.

Raymond Moss: Yeah, you're right. Effective. Seven twenty one. all within the last.

Ben Curtis: Seven twenty four. Yeah, most of these they wrote last week.

Raymond Moss: Wow.

Ben Curtis: Wow. Really interesting.

Raymond Moss: That is really interesting. Well, that is what.

Ben Curtis: Well it'll.

Raymond Moss: I would call the difference between their stated appetite and their actual appetite.

Ben Curtis: Super interesting conversation. It's been so fun to unpack each of these things. I know we've kind of went a lot of different directions in this conversation today, but I mean, what else are you supposed to do? How do you unpack a topic with like this without taking the time to actually dig into some of the minutiae, follow some of these threads and try and.

Raymond Moss: Yeah.

Ben Curtis: Uncover what's actually happening in the market? And then taking the time to actually put them all side by side like this and see what the trend differences are between These different insure techs has has been a lot of fun.

Raymond Moss: And if you are a i if you are a professional in this niche market of truck insurance, having a tool that can that can peel back all the layers and and reveal to you data that you can find truth in is just absolutely a necessity. It's so fun. It's so fun to be able to apply that.

Ben Curtis: Mean I guess people are doing it without it, but I I don't know. Maybe that's just like we said at the beginning, like once you look through the telescope it's hard to imagine not having it, but maybe if you never do you can.

Raymond Moss: You don't know.

Ben Curtis: Live blissfully. I don't.

Raymond Moss: Yeah.

Ben Curtis: Know.

Raymond Moss: Ignorance is bliss, I suppose.

Ben Curtis: All right. Well, I'm looking forward to seeing what the comments and feedback are from this. Hopefully some of our listeners have some good stories or interesting insight to add. And as always, if we get good information like that, we'll rehash it and bring it out in a future episode here and talk about the updates and and things that we got and just continue the conversation.

Raymond Moss: Yeah, and if you are a if you touch any of those markets at all, underwriting, producer, an agent of any sort of CSR, listen give us some comments, let us know what your experience has been. Especially with that new one corgi. That's fascinating one because it's brand new and fresh out there. So until then, we'll see you guys next time.